Curse

Gmr Leon · Jul 22, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

As I stated in my previous thread, Observations from the Tarnished Coast. I have developed several theories from that research. One of which, as shown by my title, relates to the Krait. One of the two native intelligent species found along the Tarnished Coast. As a note, I will be reusing screenshots from that thread, as part of my focus, if it wasn't obvious, were the Krait.

The Krait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eye of the North Manuscripts.

Found along the Tarnished Coast, the Krait rival even the Charr for viciousness and cruel ingenuity. These semi-intelligent creatures are vicious and xenophobic, attacking all other species on sight. Little is known about the elusive krait, but a few witnesses describe an army of slithering, serpentine warriors that seem able to transform in the middle of battle into numerous—and much more dangerous—forms. The reports are incomplete at best, as survivors of these encounters are often too hysterical to recall any salient details.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolpp

Krait! Wondrous, magical, and beautiful they are. No creature along the Tarnished Coast is as powerful or majestic. I need their skins, you see, for their special properties.

This is all the information we really get from the Manuscripts and in-game about these unusual creatures. What makes them most striking is their peculiar ability of Metamorphosis, of which we haven't seen displayed in any other "creature" except for the Graven Monolith. However, these creatures are actually alive, and have this either as a natural ability or as a learned ability. As shown by the quote from Kolpp, it seems likely it is a natural ability, although with the magic that hit the Tarnished Coast from the Cataclysm, it's difficult to say.

Their Locations Along the Tarnished Coast:

Arbor Bay:
Arbor Bay screenshot.

Magus Stones:
Krait screenshot 1.
Krait screenshot 2.
Shining blade corpses.
Krait screenshot 3.
Krait screenshot 4.
Krait/Hylek Proximity.

Why the Repetition?
As you can see, these are the very same pictures from my previous thread. The reason why, is simply that as I said in that thread, my focuses were manifold, and one of which was the Krait. As I began my research, I set out to discover which race seemed most likely to have built the ruins that the Asura renovated and now occupy. What I found was that, the Hylek have structures in Magus Stones and Alcazia Tangle, but their technological level invalidates them as being the builders. I also found that the Quetzal here don't have any structures, but we've seen their previous form of architecture in the Verdant Cascades. My apologies though, I haven't any pictures of those on hand.

So, what does that leave us with? Simians haven't any structures, nor any clothing, indicating their intelligence level is far too low to do so. The dinosaurs haven't the hands to do it, and appear similarly low in intelligence. The plantlike creatures thrive in the wildlife so they haven't any need for it. The Wind Riders have never had any structures from what we've observed, and likewise haven't any here. So that leaves us with only one option. The Krait.

But, how would they build any of it? They haven't any hands as well.

Wrong. They do have hands in two of their forms. And these hands are fully capable of functioning, from what I could tell.

Specimen: Necross.
Specimen: Hypnoss.

Even if they were incapable of building it, I had an idea brought to me by Elizabeth Genevieve, as she, brought to my attention Hylek "gates" at each entrance to Alcazia Tangle. Shown here:

Alcazia Tangle Hylek structures.

As shown in the last of my Magus Stones screenshots, the Krait are in extremely close proximity to the Hylek encampment, and while it was suggested by Draxynnic on Guru that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

It could be that while they're xenophobic, they're not silly enough to wage unending war with all their neighbours. The Sensali and the Yeti have a long history of fighting, as do humans and the Charr, so all of those groups have some reason apart from xenophobia to continue fighting. The Krait, however, may just have a general xenophobia that manifests in how they react to perceived trespass rather than being omnicidal.

Likewise with Konig from here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for them being Xenophobic, I think that the Kraits ignore the easily lesser (whether by power or by intelligence) creatures (for Kraits, that would be Simians, "dinos" and possibly Wind Riders) as they cannot really enslave them like Stone Summit and Charr do - again, due to their own body structure.

However, while Draxynnic's argument holds up fairly well, Konig's does not. The Hylek appear to be at a similar level of intelligence, so they should be fighting. Unless, of course, it just so happens that they are, in fact, slaves of the Krait. I didn't get screenshots to display it, but everywhere the Hylek are in Magus Stones, they're pushed to the very edge of the area. Be it west or south, they have very little control in this area. Yet, it would appear as though it isn't due to fighting with the Krait, as they do not fight when they are in extremely close proximity to one another.

So, what if this is due to a different take on the master-slave relationship? What if, while the Hylek were slaves to the Krait, the Krait offered them protection and land in return for working for them? The Krait probably figured out quickly that while they can easily kill the Hylek, the Hylek can also quickly reproduce like their Heket cousins in Elona, so this seems a very convenient relationship for both sides. The Krait get a large amount of slaves, and the slaves get to live and have protection.

What suggests this to me, is that there is an astonishing lack of dinosaurs in Magus Stones. Likewise, they are lacking in Arbor Bay, the only other location where the Krait can be found in large amounts. So, it would appear to me that the Krait can wipe the floor with any dinosaurs occupying an area with them, which would make them the best race to serve under as a slave. Not only that, but the Hylek structures that appear in Alcazia Tangle, and the, perhaps, Krait structures there, seem to suggest that the Krait were going to clear the area for Hylek habitation. The unfortunate part of this relationship, if it isn't obvious, is the amount of land you must provide due to the large population resulting from keeping the Hylek alive.

But what other evidence is there?
The first section covers all my other evidence. Everywhere the Krait are seen, there are ruins, and they are always in close proximity to them. The thing to remember here is that Rata Sum and Vlox's Falls are Asuran outposts, meaning that they are renovated ruins. And near both of these locations are large amounts of Krait.

Immediately as you walk outside of Vlox's Falls, the first thing you encounter are two or three Krait, for example. And if you happen to take the quest O Brave New World, it takes you into caverns very close to Vlox's Falls, and right outside, are, you guessed it, the Krait.

It seems to me that possibly some years ago, or perhaps even recently with the earthquakes brought on by the Destroyers that shook Tyria, destroyed this, possibly, Krait outpost. I suspect this as it doesn't seem likely that the large amount of Krait found in Arbor Bay came only from being run out of Vlox's Falls.

If the Krait are so powerful, how were they kicked out of their own homes?
Well, first off, look at how large an area they would appear to have dominated. It seems the entire Tarnished Coast, and it also seems as though they were becoming kingdom or empire builders before they were pushed out. That is, if, they were pushed out. If they were building an empire or kingdom and clearing the areas of dinosaurs, it's entirely possible they simply weren't there when they found them being occupied by the Asura. This seems hinted at by the Shining Blade's occupation of ruins to the south of Magus Stones, and the subsequent reclamation.

So why don't they just reclaim Rata Sum and Vlox's Falls? The Asura aren't that tough.
Wrong. Very, very wrong. Recall the Golems that the Asura employ to their aid for a variety of purposes. If you're being run out of your caverns, which you've lived in for centuries, and you're as intelligent as the Asura, you're going to put out your strongest arm first, and inspect the situation once you've got a solid foothold in you're newly claimed land. If there were any Krait occupying the locations the Asura now claim, they were probably a minority, considering the extent to which the Krait are spread, and as such, would most likely be easily crushed.

Even a single human can take on, and kill, a single Krait.

In summary:
I theorize that the Krait were the original occupants and builders of the "ruins" the Asura now claim, and are only held back by the Asura's superior technology. Likewise, that the Krait are far more intelligent than initially suggested by the Manuscripts, although, as even the Manuscripts state:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eye of the North Manuscripts.

Little is known about the elusive krait, but a few witnesses describe an army of slithering, serpentine warriors that seem able to transform in the middle of battle into numerous—and much more dangerous—forms.

Fabez · Jul 22, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Once again a good read Leon, though I wonder if you considered the following:

Given the description of the Krait by the Manuscripts, isn't it entirely possible the Krait killed the original "builders" of these structures?

Looking at the Krait, even though some of their race do have hands (the Necross and Hypnoss), I do not believe I have seen them wield tools (such as staffs or wands/focus items, though I might be wrong on this one).

As your theory suggests, it's still possible that the Krait occupied these structures (though after they killed the original builders), before being driven out by the Asurans/the Shining Blade.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 22, 2009, 12:41 PM // 12:41

I don't want to spoil that perfect theory Leon, but you forget one last race that could've built those structures: the Mursaat. I have a few evidence which can prove quite useful:

1.) Those structures seem too complex for a race like the Kraits. And you've already expelled the other inhabitants of these regions from your conception. Thus only the Mursaat had that kind of intelligence and resources to construct those buildings.

2.) My next proof is the geographical location. There's a fellow in Tangle Root, Old Joness. He's involved in a primary quest for Prophecies: Passage Through the Dark River. In this quest when we ask about the name of the River he gives a quite cryptic response: "Its real name is Ullen River, but those of us who know it best never call it that. It's the Dark River to us. Dark as in absence of light, yes but that's only part of it. A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something...unseen, I suppose you could say."
While this is only cryptic that little world is the key. He talks about the Mursaat. And we know that when Saul D'Alessio was in exile he had found them deep in the jungle. We don't know the exact location of their cities, but thanks to Old Joness, we can approximately locate their Empire: along the Ullen (or Dark) River, which is also very close to Rata Sum.

3.) Next, we know that too, that they were killed by the Titans. Only one remains: Lazarus the Dire. But before their downfall they were living their Golden Age in 1072 AE (the present day in Prophecies and Factions). So, they could've built all those fantastic structures there, keeping the Coast's other inhabitants enslaved, until the Titans nearly destoryed them. Then, the Kraits and others were free, and perhaps the enslavers' behaviour was the reasone that made them so xenophobic. We know the rest from here:
- Primordus begins summoning the Destroyers
- They drive the Asura away from their underground homes
- The Asura begins renovating the Mursaat's old and abandoned buildings
- The Tarnished Coast's other inhabitants are aggressive towards anyone, who trespasses their lands

PS.: My last evidence is that Rata Sum is an anagram of Mursaat

I hope I could help you with my theory. And sorry if I misread something
and judged your conception.

Shasgaliel · Jul 22, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Mursaat were able to make humans their followers almost slaves. I think they could easily control/manipulate lower species. Might be that they used kraits as a line of guard preventing anyone from getting close to them. That would explain Krait activity around Mursaat cities (Mursaat left and Kraits remained). After Mursaat left Kraits just did not enter any of the cities (were not allowed/ trained not to) and Asura could have taken the cities even without a need to fight the Kraits (by getting there through tunnels etc). Same can be with wind riders who were just used to patrol/guard some parts of the territory.

One more speculation: there is asura skill summon mursaat. Might be that asurans used such skill to go through kraits or any other species to get to the cities...

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jul 22, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

On the Mursatt, from what I have seen most of there buildings in prophecies, as well as there servants, are made of "jade", bot stone. Now I also see a possible explanation for that. Most of what we see are the Mursatt effectively going to war. So it is possible this architecture is quickly made for combat efficiently. Also most of this is in the Fire islands, and the "jade" is very volcanic looking in nature. If anyone knew of a "jade" building outside of the fire island that is not immediately part of the mursatts "war effort" it might help the point against.

On the Krait topic. While all evidence pointing there atm is krait you cannot rule out that something that is no longer there built the structures. Balthazar knows there are a shitton of old structures made by things we don't exactly know in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

One more speculation: there is asura skill summon mursaat. Might be that asurans used such skill to go through kraits or any other species to get to the cities...

Summon Mursatt just animates a polymock piece. BUT the fact that asurans knew what a Mursatt was could have some bearing on this argument. They might have seen them on a previous above ground trip. Of course it could always just be a game design thing but as far as I know you tend to interpret it all into the lore.

TheodenKing · Jul 22, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

So, what does that leave us with? Simians haven't any structures, nor any clothing, indicating their intelligence level is far too low to do so. The dinosaurs haven't the hands to do it, and appear similarly low in intelligence. The plantlike creatures thrive in the wildlife so they haven't any need for it. The Wind Riders have never had any structures from what we've observed, and likewise haven't any here. So that leaves us with only one option. The Krait.

Very "Kraitive" essay! But let me help you a little with your scientific method. You shouldn't conclude that the Krait are the "one option" remaining. You still have to address builders not currently present in that region, and builders that may be there but not discovered.

Keep going with this. Entertaining stuff!

Gmr Leon · Jul 22, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I don't want to spoil that perfect theory Leon, but you forget one last race that could've built those structures: the Mursaat.

I don't consider it perfect to any extent of the imagination, and I like seeing people's arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

1.) Those structures seem too complex for a race like the Kraits. And you've already expelled the other inhabitants of these regions from your conception. Thus only the Mursaat had that kind of intelligence and resources to construct those buildings.

True, I had considered that they would be too complex, but since I'm still uncertain as to whether or not their Metamorphosis ability is natural or learned or something of that nature, I think it's possible they're more intelligent than we suspect. However, allow me to state this: Nothing except your next piece suggests Mursaat inhabiting the Tarnished Coast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

2.) My next proof is the geographical location. There's a fellow in Tangle Root, Old Joness. He's involved in a primary quest for Prophecies: Passage Through the Dark River. In this quest when we ask about the name of the River he gives a quite cryptic response: "Its real name is Ullen River, but those of us who know it best never call it that. It's the Dark River to us. Dark as in absence of light, yes but that's only part of it. A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something...unseen, I suppose you could say."

While this is only cryptic that little word is the key. He talks about the Mursaat. And we know that when Saul D'Alessio was in exile he had found them deep in the jungle. We don't know the exact location of their cities, but thanks to Old Joness, we can approximately locate their Empire: along the Ullen (or Dark) River, which is also very close to Rata Sum.

The last paragraph here is where you're wrong. The Manuscripts only state that Saul D'Alessio was in a dense forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul D'Alessio-Founder of the White Mantle

The local authorities blindfolded him and rode him out three full weeks before leaving him to fend for himself.

Alone, broke, and lost, Saul wandered through a dense forest for several days, surviving on only roots and berries.

Now, you could easily argue that a dense forest perfectly describes a jungle, but the only jungle nearest to Kryta is the Maguuma, and the Krytans have an incredible fear of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

3.) Next, we know that too, that they were killed by the Titans. Only one remains: Lazarus the Dire. But before their downfall they were living their Golden Age in 1072 AE (the present day in Prophecies and Factions). So, they could've built all those fantastic structures there, keeping the Coast's other inhabitants enslaved, until the Titans nearly destoryed them. Then, the Kraits and others were free, and perhaps the enslavers' behaviour was the reasone that made them so xenophobic.

Actually, it's unknown how many Mursaat survivors there were. We've only seen one of them, in the case of Lazarus. Also, the structures in the Tarnished Coast do not, by any means, fit the description provided by the Manuscripts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul D'Alessio-Founder of the White Mantle

On the fourth day, delirious with hunger, Saul emerged from the trees to see what he thought was a hallucination—a city of massive towers reaching into the heavens. The architecture was astounding, and the creatures who lived here were unlike any he had ever seen.

Given, there are towers, but the city is mostly made up of pyramids which are by no means, towers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

PS.: My last evidence is that Rata Sum is an anagram of Mursaat

I hope I could help you with my theory. And sorry if I misread something
and judged your conception.

That isn't a viable piece of evidence. It could have just as easily been an easter egg Anet put there for those who had suspected the Mursaat presence in the Maguuma Jungle.

And I would also like to point out that, Lazarus's presence is not evidence of their occupation of the Tarnished Coast. Lazarus is only there because one of his host bodies happens to be there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Mursaat were able to make humans their followers almost slaves. I think they could easily control/manipulate lower species. Might be that they used kraits as a line of guard preventing anyone from getting close to them. That would explain Krait activity around Mursaat cities (Mursaat left and Kraits remained). After Mursaat left Kraits just did not enter any of the cities (were not allowed/ trained not to) and Asura could have taken the cities even without a need to fight the Kraits (by getting there through tunnels etc). Same can be with wind riders who were just used to patrol/guard some parts of the territory.

The Mursaat from what we have observed have never forced their will on any humans. The White Mantle, the humans, choose to follow them, and choose to follow their instructions. Is this manipulation, if they are willing? I personally don't think so. And also, why would the Mursaat need the Krait for defensive measures? The Jade Armors seem well suited for that particular area, and their Spectral Agony completely wipes out anything that isn't infused and a Titan.

Also, from what we've seen, the Wind Riders have never been capable of being tamed, even after Sybitha unleashed the Storm Riders, it seems as though something went wrong, or at least, she disappeared after unleashing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

On the Mursatt, from what I have seen most of there buildings in prophecies, as well as there servants, are made of "jade", bot stone. Now I also see a possible explanation for that. Most of what we see are the Mursatt effectively going to war. So it is possible this architecture is quickly made for combat efficiently. Also most of this is in the Fire islands, and the "jade" is very volcanic looking in nature. If anyone knew of a "jade" building outside of the fire island that is not immediately part of the mursatts "war effort" it might help the point against.

There aren't any other jade structures that we are aware of, however, we do know that the jade used is from the outcroppings on the Bloodstones. At the very least, this is implied by the appearance of the outcropping in Bloodstone Caves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

On the Krait topic. While all evidence pointing there atm is krait you cannot rule out that something that is no longer there built the structures. Balthazar knows there are a shitton of old structures made by things we don't exactly know in GW.

True, and I don't discount that, but it's best to have a decent theory than no idea at all, I like to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Summon Mursatt just animates a polymock piece. BUT the fact that asurans knew what a Mursatt was could have some bearing on this argument. They might have seen them on a previous above ground trip. Of course it could always just be a game design thing but as far as I know you tend to interpret it all into the lore.

Right. As to the Asura knowing what a Mursaat is, I like to think they know of them and made a polymock piece of them, after the encounter during the Turning the Page quest chain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Very "Kraitive" essay! But let me help you a little with your scientific method. You shouldn't conclude that the Krait are the "one option" remaining. You still have to address builders not currently present in that region, and builders that may be there but not discovered.

As I said earlier in this post, I don't completely discount it, but, working with the races present in the Tarnished Coast region, they are the only option remaining that shows even moderate intelligence that could make it possible, and whose architecture we have yet to see.

Narrowing it down given the races we see in the region, and by their level of intelligence, seems entirely scientific to me. The part that was unscientific, however, was the exclusion of the stone head carvings seen in Riven Earth and Alcazia Tangle that do suggest an unknown race capable of constructing the ruins. Although, given that it was 4 in the morning when I posted this, I think it was to be expected I would forget something. Besides that, I've another theory I've been working on, that I just need to modify the screenshots for, and then I'll be ready to present it.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 22, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

However, allow me to state this: Nothing except your next piece suggests Mursaat inhabiting the Tarnished Coast.

Quote:

"Its real name is Ullen River, but those of us who know it best never call it that. It's the Dark River to us. Dark as in absence of light, yes but that's only part of it. A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something...unseen, I suppose you could say."

Well, maybe only my piece suggests that the Mursaat are inhabitating the Tarnished Coast, but the quotation above tells everything. The shadow casted by something unseen. And as I've stated in my first post it is cryptic, but it's a clue from we can start. We've only known the Mursaat as Unseen Ones, and while we are exploring the Tarnished Coast, we can't find anything menacing that could cast such a threatening darkness on an area.

Quote:

The local authorities blindfolded him and rode him out three full weeks before leaving him to fend for himself.

Alone, broke, and lost, Saul wandered through a dense forest for several days, surviving on only roots and berries.

This. The authorities rode him out three full weeks. If we think in the reality three weeks with riding can take us quite far. If they left from Lion's Arch or Divinity Coast, they could've reached the Maguuma in time. So, back to Saul's story, he wondered there a few days, until he found the Mursaats.

Quote:

Now, you could easily argue that a dense forest perfectly describes a jungle, but the only jungle nearest to Kryta is the Maguuma, and the Krytans have an incredible fear of it.

Yes, you are true there, but Saul robbed merchants and travelers. In any case this is quite a crime for which they could've just easily executed him. (This is a speculation, but in the medieval kingdoms they killed people who robbed others).
Although they feared the jungle, they could've used this punishment to make an example of him.

Quote:

On the fourth day, delirious with hunger, Saul emerged from the trees to see what he thought was a hallucination—a city of massive towers reaching into the heavens. The architecture was astounding, and the creatures who lived here were unlike any he had ever seen.

Well, I can hardly argue with that but I'll try though

. Saul was delirious and hungry. So when he saw the Mursaat's pyramids he thought that they are towers. A pyramid is quite tall, and after all Krytans have never seen pyramids before.

Quote:

PS.: My last evidence is that Rata Sum is an anagram of Mursaat
I hope I could help you with my theory. And sorry if I misread something
and judged your conception.

Quote:

That isn't a viable piece of evidence. It could have just as easily been an easter egg Anet put there for those who had suspected the Mursaat presence in the Maguuma Jungle.

And I would also like to point out that, Lazarus's presence is not evidence of their occupation of the Tarnished Coast. Lazarus is only there because one of his host bodies happens to be there.

I must admit that I absolutely agree with your last comment, but...
His host body is there but Justicar Naveed came here in search for the Grimoire Arcanum, Lazarus was following him and one of his loyal White Mantle got the book before Naveed. So (this is an ultra-strong speculation) perhaps Lazarus knew where the book was and told the White Mantle group about its location. After all in my theory it was their homeland and what's more, they could've created the Arcanum.

I know I don't have enough evidence

but I like to speculate and argue!

Gmr Leon · Jul 22, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Well, maybe only my next piece suggests that the Mursaat are inhabitating the Tarnished Coast, but the quotation above tells everything. The shadow casted by something unseen. And as I've stated in my first post it is cryptic, but it's a clue from we can start. We've only known the Mursaat as Unseen Ones, and while we are exploring the Tarnished Coast, we can't find anything menacing that could cast such a threatening darkness on an area.

You know, thinking about that quote, what if it's actually alluding to the White Mantle's Temple of the Unseen, which we go to during the Riverside Province mission? It seems to be indicated that the Mursaat do reside there, or at least come there every so often, as we see them in the cutscene in the Dragon's Lair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

This. The authorities rode him out three full weeks. If we think in the reality three weeks with riding can take us quite far. If they left from Lion's Arch or Divinity Coast, they could've reached the Maguuma in time. So, back to Saul's story, he wondered there a few days, until he found the Mursaat.

In bold due to nitpicking, the proper plural form would simply be Mursaat. I like to say the same for Asura, but official sources say "Asuras" which still bugs me to no end.

Also, it seems to be implied he wasn't taken from Lion's Arch..Although you're fairly on the money with Divinity Coast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saul D'Alessio-The Founder of the White Mantle

To avoid defaulting on his payment, Saul took to robbing merchants traveling on the road from Beetletun to Shaemoor. Though he successfully paid his debt to the Lucky Horseshoe, he was eventually fingered by one of his victims and tried as a thief. His punishment was exile from the Kingdom of Kryta. The local authorities blindfolded him and rode him out three full weeks before leaving him to fend for himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Yes, you are true there, but Saul robbed merchants and travelers. In any case this is quite a crime for which they could've just easily executed him. (This is a speculation, but in the medieval kingdoms they killed people who robbed others).
Although they feared the jungle, they could've used this punishment to make an example of him.

Possibly, but as I've said, it still seems like if they took him to the jungle, they would just say it, rather than say a dense forest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Well, I can hardly argue with that but I'll try though

. Saul was delirious and hungry. So when he saw the Mursaat's pyramids he thought that they are towers. A pyramid is quite tall, and after all Krytans have never seen pyramids before.

Eh..Possibly, but I find that that's stretching it. Especially if the story of Saul was passed on by those close to him, of whom he would have likely described the city in more detail after he was brought back into good health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

I must admit that I absolutely agree with your last comment, but...His host body is there but Justicar Naveed came here in search for the Grimoire Arcanum, Lazarus was following him and one of his loyal White Mantle got the book before Naveed. So (this is an ultra-strong speculation) perhaps Lazarus knew where the book was and told the White Mantle group about its location. After all in my theory it was their homeland and what's more, they could've created the Arcanum.

This is actually your best point. Although, Lazarus wasn't following Justiciar Naveed, so much as he was within him. It does seem possible, however, that one of the other host body's holding an aspect of Lazarus, was taken control of by Lazarus, telling the White Mantle of its location. However, what I find interesting is that it would appear the Grimoire Arcanum's actual location was not in Alcazia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justiciar Naveed

So I ran, and am trying to remove that curse, using a book called the Grimoire Arcanum. The search brought me here, but I was too late. One of my former brothers in the White Mantle got here first and snatched the book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justiciar Naveed

The White Mantle who took the Grimoire Arcanum can't have gotten far. You can probably overtake them here in Alcazia Tangle, before they meet up with their main force.

Thus the question becomes, where was the Grimoire originally found at? It would appear somewhere in the Tarnished Coast, but where? It almost seems to be suggested that it was in Tarnished Haven, but then, where did the person who found it get it from? Perhaps an expatriate who dug a bit too deeply into the libraries the White Mantle were renowned for..

Konig Des Todes · Jul 22, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Those structures seem too complex for a race like the Kraits. And you've already expelled the other inhabitants of these regions from your conception. Thus only the Mursaat had that kind of intelligence and resources to construct those buildings.

But nothing supports the Mursaat once residing in the Tarnished Coast. Also, we have seen Mursaat structures at the Ring of Fire Islands and two structures of the exact same materials in the Southern Shiverpeaks (they are teleporters).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

My next proof is the geographical location. There's a fellow in Tangle Root, Old Joness. He's involved in a primary quest for Prophecies: Passage Through the Dark River. In this quest when we ask about the name of the River he gives a quite cryptic response: "Its real name is Ullen River, but those of us who know it best never call it that. It's the Dark River to us. Dark as in absence of light, yes but that's only part of it. A shadow lies over that region, and it is cast by something...unseen, I suppose you could say."

Brought up many times. The Ullen River goes northeast not south. If there is a Mursaat city/town/outpost - it is between the Henge of Denravi, where you meet Old Jones, and Riverside Province.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

While this is only cryptic that little world is the key. He talks about the Mursaat.

Which also means that "The Unseen" demons must be a Mursaat as well! Choice of words doesn't mean he talks about the Unseen Ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

And we know that when Saul D'Alessio was in exile he had found them deep in the jungle. We don't know the exact location of their cities, but thanks to Old Joness, we can approximately locate their Empire: along the Ullen (or Dark) River, which is also very close to Rata Sum.

Not Jungle! Countless times these past weeks me and Leon had to bring it up, the manuscripts for saul say a dense forest. Forests are not jungles.

And again, the Ullen River makes a U - and Old Jones' route goes North East. Rata Sum is South. Even if the river near Rata Sum is also called the Ullen River, it's not along Old Jones' path, thus is not referencing Rata Sum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Next, we know that too, that they were killed by the Titans. Only one remains: Lazarus the Dire.

More then one likely remains. Linsey has said that there are plans for the Mursaat in GW2, implying more than one remains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But before their downfall they were living their Golden Age in 1072 AE (the present day in Prophecies and Factions).

Technically, just Prophecies and before. Factions takes place immediately after Prophecies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

My last evidence is that Rata Sum is an anagram of Mursaat

That doesn't support anything. Could be coincidence (they do happen!) or it could be a reference to the Mursaat because of Anet knowing that players want the Mursaat back thanks to the Mursaat Rally/MantleCon - like Lazarus is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Mursaat were able to make humans their followers almost slaves. I think they could easily control/manipulate lower species. Might be that they used kraits as a line of guard preventing anyone from getting close to them. That would explain Krait activity around Mursaat cities (Mursaat left and Kraits remained). After Mursaat left Kraits just did not enter any of the cities (were not allowed/ trained not to) and Asura could have taken the cities even without a need to fight the Kraits (by getting there through tunnels etc). Same can be with wind riders who were just used to patrol/guard some parts of the territory.

While some races could easily be tamed. The humans were not slaves. And as proven by the Minotaurs, the more aggressive races will not subject themselves to enslavement. The Dredge naturally learn this and become more aggressive after their freedom from the Stone Summit. The Krait are highly aggressive while also not attacking those who could not enslave them. And they are also semi-intelligent (at least) - which allows them to be able to see the difference between races who could enslave them, and those who could not.

The Kraits, with their powers, do not seem like a kind that would submit to slavery. Working alongside the Mursaat is possible - but of what we know of the Mursaat, they wouldn't allow it, it's either work for or enemy it seems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

One more speculation: there is asura skill summon mursaat. Might be that asurans used such skill to go through kraits or any other species to get to the cities...

That skill is just bringing a Polymock piece to life. Same with the other Asuran Summoning skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

On the Mursatt, from what I have seen most of there buildings in prophecies, as well as there servants, are made of "jade", bot stone. Now I also see a possible explanation for that. Most of what we see are the Mursatt effectively going to war. So it is possible this architecture is quickly made for combat efficiently. Also most of this is in the Fire islands, and the "jade" is very volcanic looking in nature. If anyone knew of a "jade" building outside of the fire island that is not immediately part of the mursatts "war effort" it might help the point against.

Aside from the two teleporters, no "jade" structures are found. However, we don't see anything known to be Mursaat elsewhere. So this neither helps nor hurts either side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

On the Krait topic. While all evidence pointing there atm is krait you cannot rule out that something that is no longer there built the structures. Balthazar knows there are a shitton of old structures made by things we don't exactly know in GW.

I personally go with this. Another, extinct, race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Summon Mursatt just animates a polymock piece. BUT the fact that asurans knew what a Mursatt was could have some bearing on this argument. They might have seen them on a previous above ground trip. Of course it could always just be a game design thing but as far as I know you tend to interpret it all into the lore.

How do we know the Asuran knew what the Mursaat were? Couldn't it be that they just found some depiction of the Mursaat via Shining Blade?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Well, maybe only my piece suggests that the Mursaat are inhabitating the Tarnished Coast, but the quotation above tells everything. The shadow casted by something unseen. And as I've stated in my first post it is cryptic, but it's a clue from we can start. We've only known the Mursaat as Unseen Ones, and while we are exploring the Tarnished Coast, we can't find anything menacing that could cast such a threatening darkness on an area.

Again I bring up the fact that Old Jones' route goes Northeast, and the Tarnished Coast is south. If Old Jones goes past a Mursaat city, then it wouldn't be in the Tarnished Coast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

This. The authorities rode him out three full weeks. If we think in the reality three weeks with riding can take us quite far. If they left from Lion's Arch or Divinity Coast, they could've reached the Maguuma in time. So, back to Saul's story, he wondered there a few days, until he found the Mursaats.

The possible forest north of Kryta is dense enough to become far enough for three weeks. And I would think that if it was really that long, then they would either go around in circles or be further into the Jungle than the Ullen River. If they went to the Maguuma.

Also, there is the possibility of going in circles to make it look like they went further than they did (easier for them to get back, throw Saul off track)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Yes, you are true there, but Saul robbed merchants and travelers. In any case this is quite a crime for which they could've just easily executed him. (This is a speculation, but in the medieval kingdoms they killed people who robbed others).
Although they feared the jungle, they could've used this punishment to make an example of him.

Or a simple exiling would be a more appropriate punishment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Given, there are towers, but the city is mostly made up of pyramids which are by no means, towers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Well, I can hardly argue with that but I'll try though

. Saul was delirious and hungry. So when he saw the Mursaat's pyramids he thought that they are towers. A pyramid is quite tall, and after all Krytans have never seen pyramids before.

Aside from the generators, which are seemingly most likely Asuran (which means that whichever race the ruins belong to had no technology!), there are no pyramids aside from the huge ruin area. So I'd leave pyramids out of the question.

Either way, those towers do not reach to the heavens.

Also, just a note: The Krait Arcanoss also have hands - and are much more likely to do work than the Hypnoss who's actual hands are very tiny and by appearance, one would think those arms to be weak.

Sir Franz · Jul 23, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

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Forests are not jungles.

Jungles are Forests but not all Forests are Jungles in the modern lexicon. Jungle: 1776, from Hindi jangal "desert, forest, wasteland, uncultivated ground," from Skt. jangala-s "arid, sparsely grown with trees," of unknown origin. Specific sense of "land overgrown by vegetation in a wild, tangled mass" is first recorded 1849; Forest: A forest is an area with a high density of trees. Jungle in modern times just equates to tropical forest which the Maguuma is in its lower levels and the Maguuma meets the the old Hindi more closely then the modern meaning. Just because the manuscript says forest does not indicated that Saul was not sent to the jungle.

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But before their downfall they were living their Golden Age in 1072 AE

There is no indication that the Mursaat where in a golden age only that there power over kryta was at its height during Prophecies and they maned the RoF and could conducted military operations in the southern Shiverpeaks, for all we know the war with the sears could have devastated there nation but the Mursaat won the war and they had fled to there unseen city which could have had different architecture then the teleporters and forts in the RoF, for one the towers could have been used to power a cloak of some sort and therefor needed to be made differently then there other structures.

Now on the Krait if the ruins are not theirs it could be that the Krait are new to the area that they have moved further east from there main population centers and are in the process of casting out the local peoples.

Gmr Leon · Jul 23, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Franz

Just because the manuscript says forest does not indicated that Saul was not sent to the jungle.

There's a jungle directly west of Kryta, as I've said before, if they took him there, why wouldn't they just say it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Franz

There is no indication that the Mursaat where in a golden age only that there power over kryta was at its height during Prophecies and they maned the RoF and could conducted military operations in the southern Shiverpeaks, for all we know the war with the sears could have devastated there nation but the Mursaat won the war and they had fled to there unseen city which could have had different architecture then the teleporters and forts in the RoF, for one the towers could have been used to power a cloak of some sort and therefor needed to be made differently then there other structures.

Talk about a run-on sentence. That aside, no race in GW nor technology for that matter, has shown the ability to cloak. Hide extremely well? Yes. Cloak? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Franz

Now on the Krait if the ruins are not theirs it could be that the Krait are new to the area that they have moved further east from there main population centers and are in the process of casting out the local peoples.

Possibly. However, if they're new to the area, then why is it the main body of their forces are in the eastern and western reaches of the Tarnished Coast? Most intelligent species would begin a colony first and foremost after clearing out the local species, if they were moving into a new land.

draxynnic · Jul 23, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

This is all the information we really get from the Manuscripts and in-game about these unusual creatures. What makes them most striking is their peculiar ability of Metamorphosis, of which we haven't seen displayed in any other "creature" except for the Graven Monolith. However, these creatures are actually alive, and have this either as a natural ability or as a learned ability. As shown by the quote from Kolpp, it seems likely it is a natural ability, although with the magic that hit the Tarnished Coast from the Cataclysm, it's difficult to say.

This paragraph caught my attention, with the mental observation that while Monoliths can keep reforming until they are killed, Krait transformations only appear to go one way. This suggests one of two things: either a low-level Neoss is a larval form, or Krait metamorphosis is simply a case of switching from a 'normal' form to a combatant form - maybe a Krait gains some survival advantage by remaining in Neoss form when not fighting, or maybe the Krait just like to hide their professions from potential enemies until fighting begins.

One other curious aspect of the metamorphosis process is that not only is a Krait at full health on completing metamorphosis, but it can still do so even after the original Neoss form is slain. This could simply be a bug or an oversight, but to me, this suggests a larval stage with the 'adult' stage cocooned within - able to burst forth regardless of whether the Neoss form is still active (killing it in the process) or incapacitated. However, this raises two questions: First, where do the higher-level Neosses that do not transform fit in? Second, why do they always happen to be ready to undergo metamorphosis when attacked?

In the second, we can look to Mother Nature, where the eggs of some species of frogs will hatch if something tries to eat them. The survival aspect here is that while the tadpoles are probably better off hatching when they're supposed to, a tadpole from an egg that hatches just before being swallowed by some predator at least has a chance of surviving. A similar effect could be happening here - the Krait have some period over which they're 'supposed' to remain in the Neoss stage, but they'll automatically undergo metamorphosis in response to trauma (better premature than dead, after all).

This implies one possible explanation for adult Neosses - it may be possible that, if a given Krait doesn't undergo trauma-induced metamorphosis, there's a period after which the Krait simply matures into an adult Neoss - possibly because, on reaching maturity, the cocoon can be laid to hatch into another form without harming the Neoss host.

Alternatively, given that adult Neosses are the most common form of "adult" Krait found with young Neosses, it's possible that these Neosses are actually the same age as the metamorphosis-capable Neosses they accompany - but through an accident of genetics or by the choice of the mother to provide their young with a stronger protector - one or more of the clutch does not carry a cocoon within them for later metamorphosis. Since such a Neoss is not diverting a portion of the food it eats towards the incubating adult Krait, this would allow it to grow stronger and tougher than its metamorphosis-capable clutchmates, allowing it to defend its clutchmates against foes that aren't dangerous enough to trigger early metamorphosis.

Or it could be that the higher-level Neosses are adults, but something in the Krait social structure makes them the variety most likely to end up as nursemaids (possibly because, either due to shared profession or because they've already gone through what the younger Neosses have gone through, they can maintain a better rapport with the larva than spellcaster Krait can achieve).

Operative 14 · Jul 23, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

If the Krait built Rata Sum and the other outposts in the southern Maguma, then the architecture we see there would be indicative of their overall architecture. How can you reconcile that the Central Transfer Chamber shares many of the same features as the Asuran (supposedly Krait) outposts? Same pyramids, the same statuary, and so on. The Central Transfer Chamber is about as alien and far away as you can get in comparison to the Tarnished coast and surrounding areas that would have been the Krait's domain. Their reach would have to extend past several countries, climates, and regions to get to the Middle Shiverpeaks outside of Ascalon.

Also, why would they include stairs in their outposts if they constructed them? Only one evolution of a Krait walks upright and could take advantage of them, the rest would find them to be, at least, uncomfortable.

Tis' an interesting theory though. I've never really thought of the Krait in this sort of light before.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 23, 2009, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Stairs are partially Asuran architecure, because of the bird-like thinguies.
The spiral patterns are the most frequent..uhm, thing along the base structures, murals, stairs (..) Whatever has those patterns, is, following Leons theory, Krait made.

But in The Foundry, we don't find those patterns, and, yet, we find stairs and the bird-like stuff. The Foundry is totally Asuran made, maybe, and is inspired by the older structures.

So there could be no stairs.

Regarding the CTC matter, it's just not there. Those ruins are all along the Depths of Tyria.

Quote:

Only one evolution of a Krait walks upright and could take advantage of them, the rest would find them to be, at least, uncomfortable.

Well, Devoussess fly, Arcanosses could drag themselves, Necrosses walk, and Hypnosses and Neosses could not use the stairs. Not much of a trouble here.

Gmr Leon · Jul 23, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

If the Krait built Rata Sum and the other outposts in the southern Maguma, then the architecture we see there would be indicative of their overall architecture. How can you reconcile that the Central Transfer Chamber shares many of the same features as the Asuran (supposedly Krait) outposts? Same pyramids, the same statuary, and so on. The Central Transfer Chamber is about as alien and far away as you can get in comparison to the Tarnished coast and surrounding areas that would have been the Krait's domain. Their reach would have to extend past several countries, climates, and regions to get to the Middle Shiverpeaks outside of Ascalon.

As Elizabeth more or less said, I generally discount anything found in the Depths of Tyria as being legitimate unless it is completely unique to that dungeon. The Central Transfer Chamber is unique in that it's one of the only outposts in the Depths of Tyria, but otherwise completely lacking in terms of originality based on its architecture, which copies elements found in several dungeons, and the above ground architecture. Certain cuts such as this I feel are necessary to derive any sort of decent theory out of Eye of the North due to the nature of its creation. Does this mean my theory is more likely to be correct? By no means, not at all. In fact, it could make it more likely to be incorrect, but given what we have to work with, I can at least I say I provided my best shot at it, which is better than many would have attempted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

Also, why would they include stairs in their outposts if they constructed them? Only one evolution of a Krait walks upright and could take advantage of them, the rest would find them to be, at least, uncomfortable.

Well, technically, Hypnoss and Necross can walk up and down them, Devouss can fly over them, Neoss and Arcanoss would be the only ones with any major issues, I think. Also, I just realized that, aside from the pyramids, the two outposts along the Tarnished Coast I mentioned, don't actually have any stairs. Besides, perhaps the Krait were to resemble a Native American group (Aztecs?) and the Necross and Hypnoss were a sort of high priest that would ascend the pyramid and slaughter something. Although I think that's pushing it, since technically, the Krait were to be called Coatl, from what I found in concept art, which is obviously a reference to Quetzalcoatl, the serpent-bird God of the Aztecs. If you don't believe me, I can go dig it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

This paragraph caught my attention, with the mental observation that while Monoliths can keep reforming until they are killed, Krait transformations only appear to go one way. This suggests one of two things: either a low-level Neoss is a larval form, or Krait metamorphosis is simply a case of switching from a 'normal' form to a combatant form - maybe a Krait gains some survival advantage by remaining in Neoss form when not fighting, or maybe the Krait just like to hide their professions from potential enemies until fighting begins.

You're absolutely right that it's a one-way transformation, which is something I observed while exploring and researching. I think it might be the case of a normal form to a combatant form, personally, or, perhaps, simply a more useful form. Often, during the midst of battle, if they hadn't undergone Metamorphosis at the beginning, I found that they would transform into either a Necross or Devouss, most commonly. So it almost seems to be an intelligent act of survival when nearly annihilated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

One other curious aspect of the metamorphosis process is that not only is a Krait at full health on completing metamorphosis, but it can still do so even after the original Neoss form is slain. This could simply be a bug or an oversight, but to me, this suggests a larval stage with the 'adult' stage cocooned within - able to burst forth regardless of whether the Neoss form is still active (killing it in the process) or incapacitated. However, this raises two questions: First, where do the higher-level Neosses that do not transform fit in? Second, why do they always happen to be ready to undergo metamorphosis when attacked?

Often, when you have thought you killed them, you were completely mistaken. A Krait can complete Metamorphosis and remain there momentarily before it transforms, and as such, in that moment between its transformation, you may kill it, and this may sort of propel it into its next form.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 23, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Which also means that "The Unseen" demons must be a Mursaat as well! Choice of words doesn't mean he talks about the Unseen Ones.

Quote:

and while we are exploring the Tarnished Coast, we can't find anything menacing that could cast such a threatening darkness on an area.

Konig, I was only speculating, and you've not read it carefully enough. The quotations above tell everything. Riven Earth is quite close to the area of the Ullen River I was thinking as a possible location of Mursaat cities/outposts. And I say this again: while we are exploring those areas we can't find something menacing enough, aside from that Destroyer crater. But we know that the Destroyers arrived there later.

Quote:

Not Jungle! Countless times these past weeks me and Leon had to bring it up, the manuscripts for saul say a dense forest. Forests are not jungles.

And again, the Ullen River makes a U - and Old Jones' route goes North East. Rata Sum is South. Even if the river near Rata Sum is also called the Ullen River, it's not along Old Jones' path, thus is not referencing Rata Sum.

Okay, I logged on with my main character and opened my map. I've explored all those lands at 100% and I can't find anything fitting for a dense forest, except the Magumma. Just open any fully explored map and you can see it yourself: the only blurry part is the mountains east of Kessex Peak. Aside from that I can't find more areas dense enough until the Maguuma and the areas near the Giant Basin. And I accept that maybe they've taken Saul to those areas.

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More then one likely remains. Linsey has said that there are plans for the Mursaat in GW2, implying more than one remains.

I totally agree now. My mistake.

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Either way, those towers do not reach to the heavens.

Sorry, but you belive that a single race, even the Mursaat, could build towers that reach the heavens?!
Nobody is able to do such a thing, except the gods, maybe.

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What happened to the Margonites?

"They built towers, like so many others have, hoping to climb into the heavens and to come face-to-face with their gods, foolishly thinking they could read their petitions to Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru from their own lips. Their towers remain standing to this day, an eternal testament to their failure. Understand this: Ascension must be earned, and even then, only those few who are worthy of being raised to such a level will be admitted. All others will fall to the wayside, toiling in obscurity for a goal they cannot reach or becoming trapped like me, forced to wait for an eternity, their fate resting in the hands of someone they have not yet met."

This is a dialogue between the player and the Ghostly Hero. Even the Margonites tried it, but without any luck.

Quote:

If the Krait built Rata Sum and the other outposts in the southern Maguma, then the architecture we see there would be indicative of their overall architecture. How can you reconcile that the Central Transfer Chamber shares many of the same features as the Asuran (supposedly Krait) outposts? Same pyramids, the same statuary, and so on. The Central Transfer Chamber is about as alien and far away as you can get in comparison to the Tarnished coast and surrounding areas that would have been the Krait's domain. Their reach would have to extend past several countries, climates, and regions to get to the Middle Shiverpeaks outside of Ascalon.

Also, why would they include stairs in their outposts if they constructed them? Only one evolution of a Krait walks upright and could take advantage of them, the rest would find them to be, at least, uncomfortable.

Tis' an interesting theory though. I've never really thought of the Krait in this sort of light before.

Operative 14 is absolutely right from my point of view. Even I turned away from believing that the Mursaat built those structures.
A massive speculation comes here:
Those structures were created by another, unknown race. So, MAYBE the Mursaats settled there after the original inhabitants of those pyramids left/extinct. They've rebuilt the abandoned buildings and made their home there. After the Door of Komalie was opened and the Titans released, the Mursaat became nearly extinct.
The Asura lived in the Depths, and they built the Central Transfer Chamber atop on the same pyramids. And when they were chased away from their underground homes. They just simply did the same to the pyramid structures they had found before. Rebuilt them.

Eliz Genevieve · Jul 23, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Operative 14 is absolutely right from my point of view. Even I turned away from believing that the Mursaat built those structures.
A massive speculation comes here:
Those structures were created by another, unknown race. So, MAYBE the Mursaat settled there after the original inhabitants of those pyramids left/extinct. They've rebuilt the abandoned buildings and made their home there. After the Door of Komalie was opened and the Titans released, the Mursaat became nearly extinct.
The Asura lived in the Depths, and they built the Central Transfer Chamber atop on the same pyramids. And when they were chased away from their underground homes. They just simply did the same to the pyramid structures they had found before. Rebuilt them.

So.. if the original inhabitants of the structures left them, or got extinct by facts unknown... why the Mursaat theory? Konig already said, and I say it again:

Quote:

But nothing supports the Mursaat once residing in the Tarnished Coast. Also, we have seen Mursaat structures at the Ring of Fire Islands and two structures of the exact same materials in the Southern Shiverpeaks (they are teleporters).
Brought up many times. The Ullen River goes northeast not south. If there is a Mursaat city/town/outpost - it is between the Henge of Denravi, where you meet Old Jones, and Riverside Province.
Not Jungle! Countless times these past weeks me and Leon had to bring it up, the manuscripts for saul say a dense forest. Forests are not jungles.
And again, the Ullen River makes a U - and Old Jones' route goes North East. Rata Sum is South. Even if the river near Rata Sum is also called the Ullen River, it's not along Old Jones' path, thus is not referencing Rata Sum.

No evidence the Mursaat were ever around the Tarnished Coast.

I'd erase that. Yeah, an extinct race built the structures, due to the Destroyer threat, the Asura were taken aboveground, thus rebuilting what was at hand: those abandoned ruins.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 23, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Okay, okay. I'll cancel everything I said about the Mursaat, but let me try once more, please.

Quote:

But nothing supports the Mursaat once residing in the Tarnished Coast. Also, we have seen Mursaat structures at the Ring of Fire Islands and two structures of the exact same materials in the Southern Shiverpeaks (they are teleporters).
Brought up many times. The Ullen River goes northeast not south. If there is a Mursaat city/town/outpost - it is between the Henge of Denravi, where you meet Old Jones, and Riverside Province.
Not Jungle! Countless times these past weeks me and Leon had to bring it up, the manuscripts for saul say a dense forest. Forests are not jungles.
And again, the Ullen River makes a U - and Old Jones' route goes North East. Rata Sum is South. Even if the river near Rata Sum is also called the Ullen River, it's not along Old Jones' path, thus is not referencing Rata Sum.

Quote:

No evidence the Mursaat were ever around the Tarnished Coast.

In my last post I said that those buildings might have been built by an unknown race which left/extinct. And yes, no one found anything in the Tarnished Coast that has some connection to the Mursaat. (My only suggestion is the Grimoire Arcanum, but there's nothing else, except that the loyal White Mantle of Lazarus found it before Justicar Naveed could. Thus as Leon said:

Quote:

This is actually your best point. Although, Lazarus wasn't following Justiciar Naveed, so much as he was within him. It does seem possible, however, that one of the other host body's holding an aspect of Lazarus, was taken control of by Lazarus, telling the White Mantle of its location. However, what I find interesting is that it would appear the Grimoire Arcanum's actual location was not in Alcazia.

Let's get back to the point. The Mursaat might have settled down on those ruins, and they were not in war, so they didn't have to build Jade fortresses and Jade soldiers. And it seems that the jade is their "natural" resource, from which they would build.

Quote:

On the Mursatt, from what I have seen most of there buildings in prophecies, as well as there servants, are made of "jade", bot stone. Now I also see a possible explanation for that. Most of what we see are the Mursatt effectively going to war. So it is possible this architecture is quickly made for combat efficiently. Also most of this is in the Fire islands, and the "jade" is very volcanic looking in nature. If anyone knew of a "jade" building outside of the fire island that is not immediately part of the mursatts "war effort" it might help the point against.

And as Kerwyn said before, the Mursaat use the jade to build defensive structures, ether seals, jade soldiers. It seems again that it's the resource for their war machine.
Another point would be that the jade is much durable than mere stone. And as I said before, they were not in war with anyone at that time (perhaps I'm wrong, and again I'm speculating, so please don't tear down my head).

And here's my last points against Konig's charges again:

Quote:

Konig, I was only speculating, and you've not read it carefully enough. The quotations above tell everything. Riven Earth is quite close to the area of the Ullen River I was thinking as a possible location of Mursaat cities/outposts. And I say this again: while we are exploring those areas we can't find something menacing enough, aside from that Destroyer crater. But we know that the Destroyers arrived there later.

Okay, I logged on with my main character and opened my map. I've explored all those lands at 100% and I can't find anything fitting for a dense forest, except the Magumma. Just open any fully explored map and you can see it yourself: the only blurry part is the mountains east of Kessex Peak. Aside from that I can't find more areas dense enough until the Maguuma and the areas near the Giant Basin. And I accept that maybe they've taken Saul to those areas.

Gmr Leon · Jul 23, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Okay, I logged on with my main character and opened my map. I've explored all those lands at 100% and I can't find anything fitting for a dense forest, except the Magumma. Just open any fully explored map and you can see it yourself: the only blurry part is the mountains east of Kessex Peak. Aside from that I can't find more areas dense enough until the Maguuma and the areas near the Giant Basin. And I accept that maybe they've taken Saul to those areas.

Right. We've explored most of the Maguuma Jungle and the Tarnished Coast to the extent that we can, not finding anything that completely fits the description of the Mursaat city Saul stumbled into. Which suggests that the alternative must be the areas to the north of the Giant's Basin.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Sorry, but you belive that a single race, even the Mursaat, could build towers that reach the heavens?!

I'm not responding for Konig, although we often share the same or similar thoughts on lore-related matters, but I always thought of it merely as being a basic description. Like if a man from a third-world country completely ignorant to the architecture of cities of first-world countries somehow stumbled into such a city were to describe skyscrapers.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

A massive speculation comes here:
Those structures were created by another, unknown race. So, MAYBE the Mursaat settled there after the original inhabitants of those pyramids left/extinct. They've rebuilt the abandoned buildings and made their home there. After the Door of Komalie was opened and the Titans released, the Mursaat became nearly extinct.

The Asura lived in the Depths, and they built the Central Transfer Chamber atop on the same pyramids. And when they were chased away from their underground homes. They just simply did the same to the pyramid structures they had found before. Rebuilt them.

My take on it is simply: One, why would the Mursaat settle there, and why isn't there anything there that resembles something you might expect of them? Given their nature, I'd expect something..Grandiose, flamboyant, something displaying their ego, showing their pride in themselves. Not just sitting around in old ruins, repairing/renovating them, and then not giving them their own touch. It just seems completely unlike the Mursaat. Look at the Soul Batteries, for Grenth's sake. They're constructed in the image of the Mursaat. Built by the White Mantle? Possibly, but they have the properties to contain souls, which suggests possible Mursaat construction.

Perhaps you will say, but the (and I'm just using this name for shorthand since their fortifications on the Ring of Fire Islands Chain haven't a name) Onyx Gate hasn't such flamboyance. Well, in this case, I should say, it's built as part of their war machine, and besides that, is utilizing the resources that are not only apparently strong (both physically and magically), but most abundant.

Now, with the Asura, they seem to be much the same as the Mursaat, albeit not entirely as cold. Given, they've only recently resurfaced, so they haven't had time to make their own additions to the ruins that show off their ego, but the Central Transfer Chamber, on the other hand, they've had for who knows how long. Yet, they haven't altered it much, a few banners here and there, (which actually, when you look at what they depict, doesn't appear Asuran) and of course the gates. So, what have we here? The same ruins that are found in dungeons, which, in being in the Depths of Tyria, I believe shouldn't be exempt from exclusion in our research.

The dungeons of Tyria, while a potential source of lore, and their quests are legitimate lore, should, however, have their contents exempt from being legitimate lore except for those chambers or elements which are not found reused in any other dungeon. This is my basic opinion on the legitimacy of the Depths of Tyria.

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Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

The Mursaat might have settled down on those ruins, and they were not in war, so they didn't have to build Jade fortresses and Jade soldiers. And it seems that the jade is their "natural" resource, from which they would build.

My question still remains. For what reason? Why? Especially if it isn't their homeland. The only time an entire civilization decides to move is normally due to a dearth of natural resources, a disaster, political purposes, or some other variety of reasons.

And I would like you to know, that, while I do agree on many points with Konig, I also quite often disagree with the manner in which he presents his points. He tends to have a bit of a (unintended?) harsh tone in his posts, whereas I try to be more understanding, as many of the points raised have been raised before, but, hey, it's the nature of newcomers to do so.